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5/10/2015 9:37 pm  #1


Vacuum Gauge Getting me down...

I have been happily cranking out heads that I thought were good. They seem to test out using old methods like Sharpies and Blueing. I had a guy bring in a vacuum tester and found I was failing

I tried to beat the vacuum gauge with lapping, polishing, but all seemed to fail! I just don't seem to be able to get a tight seal. I can get it so that if I put a little engine oil around the valve it is sealed, but not with a clean metal to metal surface.

I use a Winona CMC30 with 3 angle cutters. In my attempt to beat the vacuum gauge I used finishing stones, lapping compounds, rubbing compounds, and polishing compounds.
(You can probably tell I am not a trained professional, just an old guy in a small rural town who likes to play.)

How successful are you, and how do you get there? or is an air tight seal not possible until the engine has run a few miles?

Last edited by davehagen (5/14/2015 8:12 am)

 

5/11/2015 12:45 pm  #2


Re: Vacuum Gauge Getting me down...

Bob,
 How much vacuum are you trying to pull on it ?  Try smacking the top of the valve with a medium size plastic hammer a few times after you assemble the head, then see what happens ? I have done that for years just to make sure all of the retainers and locks are seated properly. Kind of hard to do on recessed valves though.

 I use red Dykem on the seats and lap all of the valves with 320 grit lapping compound. Just a few strokes and you will see if it is hitting the seat all the way around.


Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
www.enginerepairshop.com
 

5/11/2015 6:13 pm  #3


Re: Vacuum Gauge Getting me down...

We pull a vacum on all the valves we machine once the machining is finished and cleaned up we drop in the valves and tap them on the seats several times ( lightly) check for seat contact ring pull a vacum with no springs installed and usually get 15- 20 lbs of vacum if you are using 3 angle cuters and having problems make sure your pilots are compatable with the cutting tool holder we use a Goodson 375 tool holder with the 375 pilots,,Regis also sells the same tooling  works really good but there is always room for improvement

 

5/11/2015 6:46 pm  #4


Re: Vacuum Gauge Getting me down...

I am using a hand vacuum pump and I can pull the 15, 20 pounds, but it bleeds off (slowly when the pump is stopped), they won't hold the vacuum unless I put a bit of engine oil around them, then they seal and don't bleed off. With the oil, I can pull whatever I want, stop pumping and the gauge holds steady, air tight.

Of course, I am using a positive valve seal in this case to completely seal the valve stem to be air tight. (With out a positive valve seal it would be impossible to get an air tight seal)
 

     Thread Starter
 

5/20/2015 4:50 pm  #5


Re: Vacuum Gauge Getting me down...

The issue is concentricity of both the seat and valve face. I dial all my valves to ensure they have less then .001 run out while in the chuck and also check the seats for the same. Pilot shape and condition can influence runout when using a tapered pilot. I have many custom pilots with very little taper ( less then .001) to locate the pilot well in the guide. This is for engines I work on all the time. while the manufacture use an interference type valve seat configuration that allows the valve and seat to mash together to seal over time of the break in to seal right.

I find that unless you are keeping the run out down lapping the valves won't fix the problem. Funny thing is valves are machined not ground making the stems flex some during the machining process causing built in run out and depending on what valve grinding machine you have that can also cause issues as well.

It takes a bit of extra time but after you prep a valve to grind put it in the chuck and a dial indicator on the stem about 1" from the chuck and check the run out. If more then .001 the machine's chuck needs some attention.

Personally I have 4 machines all for different engine work. I prefer the Sioux machines with their indexable chuck that allows you to dial out any run out. The kwik Way machines use a 6 ball chuck and the requirement of dressing the tip before chucking the valve is a must to reduce runout at the face.
There is some very simple fix's for both machines that don't cost an arm and leg.

And also pilot runout can be an issue.
Are you using HSS or Carbide pilots.While carbide is prefered for ridgidity on anything 7mm and smaller HSS will do the job for the larger sizes very well as long as they are straight and run true


Pro Power Engine & Machine
Victoria BC Canada
www.propowerengines.ca
 

5/22/2015 10:47 am  #6


Re: Vacuum Gauge Getting me down...

Dave,
Great job! Great answer. Dial indicating the seat must do as our members find NEW OEM heads are way off. If you don't own one buy yourself one and get checking. So easy and quick just make sure it does not wobble on your pilots as they wear on the tops. My lesson learned many years ago the hard way.
NOTE: On checking with a vacuum source. Pull whatever inchs you what to use, but then turn a valve in the line off blocking see how long it holds the vacuum. This will check valve to valve seat and valve seal leakage.
Mike

Last edited by Mike Caruso (5/22/2015 10:56 am)

 

5/25/2015 10:54 pm  #7


Re: Vacuum Gauge Getting me down...

Personally I dial indicate every valve stem while in the refacer and check every seat just to be dead on every time.
I use a Sioux refacer and it has the ability to adjust the chuck to various stem sizes. The 680- 2001 and 2075 have 4 position chucks that allows the user to correct run out so the valve face is within .0002 .0005 if directions are followed on proper use of the mqachine.
I got the procedure from the sales rep here back in the 80's and never changed it's use. 
Things guys forget is valves are not centerless ground they are machined and there fore have some built in runout and 95% of shops do not concern themselfs with this issue saying it takes too much time but in reality it takes an extra 1/2 hr over the course of the complete machining operation.

The bouns is better vaccum signal for computer controled engines thus tighter guide clearances can be used for better oil control. Gone are the days of OEM interfearance fit valve jobs requiring 10,000 miles to fully seat. Customers want instant sealing so they have no running issues with vaccum signal sensors.
They are not adjustable and as such I find Fords and almost any Chrysler product as well as imports like Toyota and Honda as well as Mitsubishi.
If I remember rightly there is some TB;s regarding valve sealing on some engines that does not show up on a typical compression test but I do see a few more shops now with dual gauge leak down testers to help figure out cylinder sealing issues.
Valve seat and face concentricity is the most important thing in a good V/job and with the right tools you can go from average shop to Rock Star in no time.


Pro Power Engine & Machine
Victoria BC Canada
www.propowerengines.ca
 

5/26/2015 8:08 am  #8


Re: Vacuum Gauge Getting me down...

So correct Dave people need to understand just what is in thier hands. How important to the vehicles performance that the valve seal is.

 

7/20/2015 3:41 pm  #9


Re: Vacuum Gauge Getting me down...

I dont think a hand vacuum would be very easy to use. Plus none of them will hold a vacuum (it gets past the guides) We have an air powered rig from goodson that we integrated into our seat and guide machine.(I think Newen also sells or sold one for their machine). For single or dual valves we expect to pull 24 inches of vacuum. For big diesels with cast in intakes where you are checking all the valves at once we expect to see 15- 20 inches of vacuum depending on the number of valves and overall size of the head. We check ours on the machine with the valves and seats wiped clean and the valve sitting on its seat of its own weight.

 

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